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Avatar for VermontBarb
Feb 4, 2023 9:31 AM CST
Thread OP
Vermont
In the article, "Create a Butterfly Garden," it says, "Add nectar plants, including aster, black-eyed Susan, butterfly bush, butterfly weed, cosmos, ironweed, Joe-Pye weed, phlox, purple coneflower, sedum, and zinnia." Butterfly bush is considered an invasive, and actually dangerous for an ecosystem in that it crowds out native plants on which the caterpillars need to feed. No caterpillars, no birds...
Avatar for hampartsum
Feb 4, 2023 9:58 AM CST
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche,Rio Negro, Argentina (Zone 8a)
Dahlias Irises Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Roses
I was surprised about Butterfly bush ( Buddleja davidii). I have a clump growing in pots (still Sighing! ) that I tremble around the idea of transplanting them out into the garden, since they grow very deep roots . Mine were grown from seed and I have never seen any offsets or other propagules that could be cause of detriment to nature. I'm planning to grow it in the garden along with the native Buddleja globosa. The latter is also fragrant and its rounded blooms are orange, a very good complemento for my mostly dark purple, B.davidii

The genus is full of garden worthy bushes all of which attract butterflies. Before reading this post , I was watching a butterfly search for nectar on one of my purple B.davidii!
I have no information around where B.d. can be environmentally detrimental or invasive. If so it clearly is not a widespread phenomenon.

Arturo
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Feb 4, 2023 12:08 PM CST
Name: Nancy
Northeastern Illinois (Zone 5b)
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There are so many sterile hybrids out there now that are not considered invasive, they don't drop seeds. I've even planted a few in my yard (Zone 5) and haven't had any problems at all with them getting out of hand... it's still just the one short bush.
https://plantaddicts.com/are-b...
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Feb 4, 2023 12:20 PM CST
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Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
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As mentioned, most hybrids don't spread, also, not all listed as invasive in one area are invasive elsewhere so you can't put a blanket statement on them. Each gardener has to do their own research.
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Feb 4, 2023 12:41 PM CST
Name: Gina
Florida (Zone 9a)
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I've had several planted in my yard in zone 9a for years and they have never spread
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Avatar for VermontBarb
Feb 4, 2023 2:07 PM CST
Thread OP
Vermont
I don't claim to be an expert. I paid a small fortune (close to $80) for the plant I ended up with, but it is from a nursery that I wouldn't have expected to promote problematic plants. I typed in a search about whether butterfly bushes were invasive. Here are just a few of the first sites that came up.

https://www.brandywine.org/con....

https://www.ecosystemgardening...

https://extension.psu.edu/avoi...
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Feb 4, 2023 3:03 PM CST
Name: Nancy
Northeastern Illinois (Zone 5b)
Hummingbirder Birds Bird Bath, Fountain and Waterfall Hydrangeas Adeniums Daylilies
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What specific plant variety did you end up with?

As said before, gardeners should do their own research before planting anything. The butterfly bushes I planted are sterile, they will not seed anywhere and they don't overrun the yard. In fact, I lost one to the daylilies on one side and bee balm on the other side that finally choked one out. Avoid the invasive varieties, stick to the sterile ones if you want to have them in your yard.
Avatar for VermontBarb
Feb 4, 2023 4:23 PM CST
Thread OP
Vermont
At the time, I didn't realize that they could be invasive, and I thought that by the name, I was planting something good! I fell in love with the deep purple, and I got a BUDDLEIA davidii 'Black Knight' which is considered invasive. I'm not really good about deadheading plants, but I will make an effort with it or just consider it an expensive lesson and dig it out. It sounds like seeds are small and carried by the wind. Who knows, maybe the -40 temps we're experiencing will kill it, and I won't have to do anything!

None the less, the original point was that I am disappointed that an organization about gardening wouldn't make a point of instructing readers of this possibility. I have gardened for close to 50 years and wasn't aware of the problems with this particular plant. I feel that there is a responsibility to have some sort of disclaimer. There was no mention of the fact that it can be invasive, so I started this thread to hopefully prevent someone else from making the mistake I made.

I have been learning a great deal about native plants and how they help the biome in which they live vs. non-natives. I am reading Nature's Best Hope by Doug Tallemy, but prior to that, I have planted out a large chunk of my one acre in permaculture fashion. I planted the buddleia to attract insects into my food forest area, but it turns out that they aren't really beneficial. I'd have been better off planting salvia or echinacea. I certainly don't want it to crowd out the "good" stuff! I am disappointed that the nursery didn't guide me on this either. I should know better than do such an impulse buy.
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Feb 4, 2023 4:58 PM CST
Name: Nancy
Northeastern Illinois (Zone 5b)
Hummingbirder Birds Bird Bath, Fountain and Waterfall Hydrangeas Adeniums Daylilies
Salvias Container Gardener Enjoys or suffers cold winters Butterflies Dragonflies Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Yes, an expensive lesson. $80 for just one bush? Sounds outrageous unless it was a 10-year old plant or something massive that they planted? Is it something the nursery recommended so you might be able to ask them to replace it, not knowing it was invasive and they really should have warned you? If you came and picked it out though, probably a lost cause with that idea.

It sounds like it will possibly die to the ground over winter, but will come back to life come spring. I think if you're vigilant about deadheading it before the flowers go to seed, you might be able to keep your dark purple blooms and not be worried about its effects. Doing that might also keep it blooming much longer, so I'd be happy with that compromise if it was me, rather than just waste $80.
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Feb 4, 2023 5:15 PM CST
Name: Alana H
SE Kentucky (Zone 7a)
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Much of the plant data here is user driven. When you visit a particular plant in the database, there is a menu allowing you to add data. You can also choose to post a comment. If you have concerns about a plant you have experience with you can comment on it, or if you know specifically from a reputable source about where a plant might be invasive, it is helpful to the community to add that. Some plants have a lot of detailed cultural and other information available, thanks to the membership here. Smiling
Last edited by poisondartfrog Feb 4, 2023 5:16 PM Icon for preview
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Feb 4, 2023 5:54 PM CST
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
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VermontBarb, I think the problem here is the article may be outdated. A number of articles here are from an older site that merged with a newer site to make this one. I would not be surprised if many of the sterile hybrids were introduced after the article was written.

Could you supply a link to the article so we can take a look at it? I agree from what you said that the article may need a bit of "adjusting".
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Feb 4, 2023 6:20 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
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Found under "Learning Library' >Browse All Articles>Wildlife>Butterflies
https://garden.org/learn/artic...
and yes, an old article.
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Feb 4, 2023 7:49 PM CST
Name: Gina
Florida (Zone 9a)
Tropical plant collector 40 years
Aroids Region: Florida Greenhouse Tropicals
$80 for a butterfly bush is insane. All colors and cultivars sell for $12-15 here
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Avatar for kreemoweet
Feb 4, 2023 8:58 PM CST
Name: K
Seattle, WA (Zone 9a)
The term "invasive" is really rather meaningless. Every single species, of plant and animal and whatever, is designed by the forces of evolution to "be fruitful and multiply". They all will thrive and expand their populations if given the correct environment. So-called "native" species (which is an arbitrary label, as species in a given area are, will, and have always been, constantly changing) are the same, and there is nothing particulary desirable or superior about them. There are some who would tell you otherwise, but their words can only be regarded as the earnest, but blindered, supplications of religious devotees to some strange religion.

Gardeners should grow whatever pleases them. If some busybody should step up and claim "your plants will "crowd out natives"", the proper retort would be:
"So What!".

My (former) neighbors evidently were fond of Buddlejas, they stuck in a dozen or so of them around the perimeter of their yard when they moved in. Years later, they stand 25 feet or so tall, they lean over the fence and shade out my precious apple tree. They are ugly as hell, untidy, and drop seeds all over my raised garden beds, and I pull hundreds of seedlings out every year. I hack them back as far as I can reach from our boundary fence. Nevertheless, the statement that they may be "dangerous" is just plain ridiculous.
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Feb 5, 2023 7:40 AM CST
Name: Gina
Florida (Zone 9a)
Tropical plant collector 40 years
Aroids Region: Florida Greenhouse Tropicals
Sometimes invasiveness can be a problem. Perhaps not in Seattle. But in Florida, its a real thing. Some examples are the Chinese Tallow Tree, the Sesbania called Rattlebox, the Air Potato, Kudzu, coral berry Ardisia, Carolina jessamine,Nandina and many many others. They escaped cultivation and this is the perfect environment for them to spread and take over. Acres of wetlands have been consumed and native species killed off by the Chinese tallow tree. Natural Waterways have been clogged and turned into oxygen deserts and dead zones by Water Lettuce and Water Hyacinth and Giant Duckweed. Until they started employing sheep to eat Kudzu it was blanketing hammocks and killing trees. Groups here have yearly expeditions to pick up and try and eradicate the Air Potato, which can do the same thing. The seemingly innocuous plain green Colocasia escuelenta that has been an invasive exotic in the Florida landscape for decades as well as the larger growing Xanthosoma saggitifolia and robusta grow in every ditch and bog in Florida.
But none of these have sterile cultivars like Buddleya that will not spread. That is the difference.
As the climate warms and pests and invasive plants that are for now contained in the most southern states more up the country, people will begin to see that invasive exotic plants, animals and insects really are a serious issue. It is already happening with the Imported Fire Ants.
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Last edited by Gina1960 Feb 5, 2023 1:00 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for VermontBarb
Feb 5, 2023 7:57 AM CST
Thread OP
Vermont
Kreemoweet, I used to feel as you do, but have been reading more and have started to connect the dots among distinct pieces of information . Below, I'll share some of the things that I've recently learned...and understand, I'm 62. I've been gardening for a while! I've always realized that we need to do more to protect the environment and that without nature we are doomed. The statistics are horrifying, for example, did you know that only three percent of the Monarchs that used to be in 1976 are still accounted for. That means 97% are gone. That's just one animal, but as we take away their feeding sources and places to lay eggs, we are taking part in a trophic cascade that we may not be able to rebound from. Obviously, the Monarch is just one of thousands of species. I wonder what the numbers are for all of the Lepidoptera. The 'nasties' in our gardens are necessary to keep the whole food web functioning. We need the pests so that other animals can feed. If we remove the food source, we remove the feeder. One bird pair will feed over 4,000 caterpillars to their hatchlings over a five day period, and must gather them in a relatively small area. We are at the tipping point, and if everyone doesn't help, our days (and especially our kids' and grandkids') are numbered. To get back to the butterfly bush, one may ask why it matters. "Natives" or indigenous species matter because animals have adapted to feed or raise their young on them. This is why jumping worms, the elm borer and red lantern fly, for example, are so dangerous. They have been imported and nothing feeds on them to keep them in check. In Asia, where some of these are native, there are natural predators. Back to the butterfly bush, while its nectar draws in some insects, it's only for a very short while and does not assist in all phases of its life cycle. If the bush has crowded out the insect's symbiotic plants and it has nowhere to live or raise its young...it dies, and so the trophic cascade begins. The rate at which extinctions are happening is staggering. Biologists think 50% of species will be facing extinction by the end of the century. One in five species on Earth now faces extinction, and that will rise to 50% by the end of the century unless urgent action is taken. We are in a period that the scientists are now calling the 6th great extinction and anyone who isn't petrified by this isn't paying attention. We can all do our little bit. We need every bit of natural habitat that we can keep and we need to add to it by turning areas of our property back to native gardens, complete with trees and ground covers and everything in between! Lawn does nothing for wildlife, especially when chemical fertilizers, insecticides, etc. are added. Monocultures in any form are not good. Miles of just corn, for example, are destroying the natural flora and fauna, and are leading to our own demise. When something like the butterfly bush encroaches and takes over--same. Meanwhile, an oak tree supports at least 934 species of caterpillars alone, say nothing of other creatures! I just ask that we all try to be more informed. Maybe something I said here will make someone more curious and they will stop and look something up and then share their learning and perhaps know to be more careful about what they plant. I wish I'd known about the butterfly plant and the ramifications of planting one a few years ago!
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Feb 5, 2023 8:42 AM CST
Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
Garden Sages Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Plant Identifier
I think people planting these supposed "sterile" bushes should maybe remember the lesson of the callery pear:
https://neilsperry.com/2023/02...

planted as sterile... until they weren't.

These buddleja bushes are especially problematic in areas that are sufficiently moist... similar to the Italian arum and the purple loosestrife.

In areas like mine in the sandhills... maybe not so much... except for the possibility of wind blown seed getting to a creek or other wetland type environment... and then?
Problems.

It's easy to say that we should be able to grow what we want...
But when what we want to grow has the potential to devastate the ecology over a massive region... might be time to consider the downside.
And plant something else.
Last edited by stone Feb 5, 2023 8:44 AM Icon for preview
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Feb 5, 2023 10:53 AM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis,MN, USA z4b,Dfb/a
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I actually agree with a basic principle that kreemoweet relays: that eventually, nature has to adapt, and does. But this can't, and doesn't happen in 50 years or a century's time. It takes millennia. That we should not at least try to be responsible with what we as humans cause (good or bad).... this is the ridiculous statement. Meanwhile the consequences of such rapid change, are greatly amplified.

I am perplexed by kreemoweet's action of continually pulling Buddleja seedlings and hacking back her neighbor's Buddleja in favor of her precious (kreemoweet's word) apple tree. The justification is not what is vexing; but what I don't understand is how this is so different from doing the exact same thing in favor of native species that other people (apparently not kreemoweet) see as precious. And as a corollary, how is this the same, so as to equate a backyard "problem" with a world problem?
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Feb 6, 2023 8:49 PM CST
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL @--`--,----- 🌹 (Zone 8b)
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Barb, I don't think your state is included in the discussion about B. davidii being invasive. It is not an issue at every location. If it can't spread and flourish, it can't be invasive. This site has members from all over the world.

B. davidii is a very long-blooming shrub here, and the name is accurate. Butterflies of so many different types love them, as do bees and hummingbirds. My sterile cultivars have never produced a seed in about 15 yrs in OH, and another 15 yrs in AL. Anyone concerned about spreading BB's need only buy a sterile cultivar, as said above.

Species have been going extinct for millions of years. Nature makes these decisions. Are things evolving? If so, is it mistake to try to alter nature's selections?

The list of nectar plants in that article is so brief, it's not even close to being 1% of the nectar plants one could put in a garden. Nectar plants and host plants are different. Most nectar plants have nearly universal appeal for so many flying things. I'm glad you are also interested in adding host plants. If you are looking for other nectar plants, there are a LOT of others mentioned in this discussion:
The thread "Nectar plants for butterflies and hummingbirds" in Gardening for Butterflies, Birds and Bees forum
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