I know that certain near whites act as color clarifiers in hybrids. Does anyone know of any that won't have this effect?

I was hoping you would get some replies from some experienced hybridizers. I find your question interesting, but have no experience using whites as clarifiers.

OK, I will be the one to put their hand up. What is a color clarifier? Never heard this term before (and it is not in the ADS daylily dictionary of terms). Cannot even imagine what it means, aside from bringing something fuzzy into focus.

Basically, it is suppose to bring the color into focus...well to keep a color from looking "muddy". Now we can have a discussion on the definition of muddy.

I agree, a "clarifier" is presumably supposed to clarify red and purple flowers. I have always assumed that since a near-white should have low carotenoid pigment concentrations in its flowers that crossing a "muddy" coloured red or purple to a daylily that was near-white would help the seedlings to have clearer flower colours. I have always also assumed that the best near-whites to choose to use as flower colour clarifiers would mean choosing daylilies that had near-white main petals but clear anthocyanin coloured eyezones. Otherwise, I have assumed that the near-white parent would act to reduce the amount/intensity of anthocyanin pigments in the seedling flowers making them lighter coloured as well as clearer in colour.
'Clarification' is considered to be a "colour clarifier".
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Clarification')

Larry!
I think I may know "muddy". I assume a polychrome is the opposite of a color clarifier, so if one of those polychromes was crossed with a color-clarifier we would get solid colors instead of blended colors? I think I may get it now.

I posted at the same time as Maurice. Thanks also to him.

I had heard of using whites for clarification, but out of curiosity I looked up daylily color clarifiers and found this dark one.
BLACK AMETHYST: "This daylily is a very fertile breeder, tending to be a color clarifier. Good for the front of the border for something different and eye-catching. Great parent for unusual colors, tends to be a color clarifier."
https://petalpusher.plantfans....

Maybe many whites can be clarifiers in part because they offer little new pigment but create an opportunity to roll the genetic dice and exclude muddy genes, "dilute" pigment etc. But by the same token, some of the offspring may be more intensely pigmented.

Melons aren't white but may also act as clarifiers (if they are not-yellow and non-pink.) The article by Joanne Norton on "Some Basic Hemerocallis Genetics" has a lot of good info. Redneck Reunion is a clarifier and can look very melony in my garden. It's a parent to the lust-worthy "Bring In the Beef."


Redneck Reunion

This is an interesting question. One might want the characteristics of a white cultivar while maintaining the color intensity of the other parent. Generally, I imagine using a white parent as a roll of the genetic dice- the offspring might show a variety of color intensities. What are you hoping for, Strigeidida?

Actually what you just said made me remember something, Justine.

This is from the Stamile webpage:
"Wild Dolly is another of my "go to" daylilies. If I have a seedling with a break but with multiple faults -weak pollen, poor opening, poor branching, poor plant habit, poor bud placement I take it to Wild Dolly for correction."

This is Wild Dolly:

More cream than white. But the text appears to hint that it might possibly not be a clarifier, since he runs other daylilies through it so often.

Sounds like Stamile uses Wild Dolly to strengthen plant habit, and that's the sort of decision I'm referring to. The offspring are able to display different colors because the melon base doesn't interfere. But the eye is a dominant trait, so the offspring will tend that way.

Hembrain said: Melons aren't white but may also act as clarifiers (if they are not-yellow and non-pink.) The article by Joanne Norton on "Some Basic Hemerocallis Genetics" has a lot of good info. Redneck Reunion is a clarifier and can look very melony in my garden. It's a parent to the lust-worthy "Bring In the Beef."


Redneck Reunion

This is an interesting question. One might want the characteristics of a white cultivar while maintaining the color intensity of the other parent. Generally, I imagine using a white parent as a roll of the genetic dice- the offspring might show a variety of color intensities. What are you hoping for, Strigeidida?

I'm gunning for silver/pewter tones. Something along the lines of Grey Witch, but more neutral and paler.

Is 'Gunmetal' the right sort of colour?

I know that Patrick Stamile spoke about GREAT WHITE being a color clarifier for pinks. If one looks at the children of GREAT WHITE, one can see this effect.

David

Golly, Great White has a lot of kids!

I wonder if the diploid Blue Dolphin has some of that pewter color. I suspect it has both clarifier and intensifier genes though, so it will magnify hue part of the time.

Bue Dolphin

In a tet, I think of Pewter Lake as tending towards a cool but clear shade. And Blue Crane (which is more lavender than this sunny picture depicts.) But you are not necessarily wanting clear, are you @Strigeidida ?


Blue Crane


Pewter Lake

I know what I want, but am unsure of how to get it. My goal is to breed rust resistant daylilies in goth colors. It may be that I am thinking along your lines, since I acquired Aquamarine, Asterisk, Cerulean Star and Prague Spring. However, it seems that I have more homework to do.

I also have Trahlyta, Grey Witch, Eggplant Ecstasy, and Heat Lightning. Currently working on getting Starman's Quest and Persian Pattern.

As for near whites, I have Gentle Shepherd, How High the Moon, Heavenly White Swan, Great White Swan and Heavenly Angel Kisses. I'm also almost out of space, with more on the way. I think I have more daylilies than space, a conundrum most people here are familiar with.

I'm trying to breed something you might find in Morticia Addams' backyard. Probably not going to be popular, but it will be fun.

Strigeidida said: I know what I want, but am unsure of how to get it. My goal is to breed rust resistant daylilies in goth colors. It may be that I am thinking along your lines, since I acquired Aquamarine, Asterisk, Cerulean Star and Prague Spring. However, it seems that I have more homework to do.

I also have Trahlyta, Grey Witch, Eggplant Ecstasy, and Heat Lightning. Currently working on getting Starman's Quest and Persian Pattern.

As for near whites, I have Gentle Shepherd, How High the Moon, Heavenly White Swan, Great White Swan and Heavenly Angel Kisses. I'm also almost out of space, with more on the way. I think I have more daylilies than space, a conundrum most people here are familiar with.

I'm trying to breed something you might find in Morticia Addams' backyard. Probably not going to be popular, but it will be fun.

That's a fun goal, and is likely to be popular. Ironically, greys and browns are like "sorbet" to the parade of clear colors, and seem sought after by many. Sounds like you're working at it from a dip angle. If you were into tets and had more room, I would suggest some of Curt Hanson's intros that follow the converted Trahlyta genes. Beyond the sometimes-stippling of knockouts like Jerry Hyatt and In Taffeta Patterns, cultivars like Marshall McLuhan have a delicious grey cast to the eye and/or edge.

I have the image of Morticia snipping roses from their stems as she prepares the stems for the vase. In the dark spirit of that, she might appreciate the irony of scape blast. Oh, the horror!

I think goth gardens are in right now. I was buying seeds the other day from Baker Creek and they have an image saying "Grow a Goth Garden" and clicking it takes you to listings of tons of dark colored plants like black (dark purple) carrots, black flowers, etc.

This sounds like a great goal and I wish you luck!

That sounds fun.
I like dark moody ones. Despite the silly name I have always thought Strawberries and Chocolate was a Victorian steampunk (possibly goth) bloom. It is on my very long want list.

And then my current beau (I keep bringing it up, I know) that is impossible to get for the next few years:

Here's spooky Jerry Hyatt, which is never the same day-to -day.


And Starman's Quest had a reblooming baby with those color-changing characteristics

Ripple Effect

The dip Beat of My Heart is a bit hard to find but is a fave here. For me it has been pollen fertile but pod difficult. It has big indigo blooms with modern flower presentation and the impression of complex color mix in the eyezone that can look a bit dusky sometimes but just adds to the "pop". Too much color for pewter?


Beat Of My Heart

See how quickly it becomes a show-and-tell of favorites?